Oleh/By : DATO SERI DR MAHATHIR BIN MOHAMAD
Tempat/Venue : KUALA LUMPUR, MALAYSIA.
Tarikh/Date : 11-01-2002
Tajuk/Title : INTERVIEW BETWEEN PM AND JAPANESE
MAGAZINE "CHUOKORON".
Versi : ENGLISH
Penyampai : PM
Q. How do you see the development in Afghanistan?
A. It is going to be very messy. Because that is the
way of Afghanistan. They have many different tribes
and many different warlords, each one will pull towards
different directions, so forming a coalition with the
purpose of defeating Taliban is one thing. Forming a
coalition to govern Afghanistan is totally different.
This is where they will be disunited, and they cannot
govern Afghanistan properly. Also they are also guilty
of atrocities against the people of Afghanistan. Of
course the Northern Alliance is more liberal minded
than the Taliban. But the Northern Alliance include
many other warlords, leaders of different tribes, and
of different regions. In order for the coalition to be
effective, everybody must be brought in. But they
cannot agree among themselves.
Q. Is there any good way to solve this problem?
A. It is very difficult. Because these people are
very factional, and they cannot agree among themselves.
What they need is a very strong leader. But Ahmad Shah
Massood has been killed. He and Burhanuddin Rabbani
provided a strong leadership, but Rabbani cannot
provide military leadership that Masood provided.
There will be a lot of infighting. It will take time.
Q. How do you see the role of the UN?
A. They should play the honest broker. The United
Nations should try to bring the people together. To
help the people is the most important thing. To
provide aid, food, to repair the damaged roads, etc.
Q. Are you still against of the US attack on
Afghanistan?
A. Well it has removed the Taliban, but as you see,
the Northern Alliance is not going to cooperate with
the United States or Britain. They refused the
British. The British happily landed there thinking
that the Northern Alliance had won and they could come
in, but they are told to get out. Afghanistan is like
that. They are very independent.
Q. Will this be like repeating the Vietnam War?
A. It can be like that. If the United States tries to
enforce their rule on Afghanistan there will be a fight
because Afghanistan will never allow foreigners to rule
their country or dominate their country no matter who
they are.
Q. Why are there negative feelings towards US even
here in Malaysia?
A. It is a general feeling in Malaysia including from
the opposition parties. Maybe opposition parties are
stronger in their views. Nearly everyone is opposed to
the US attack on Afghanistan because most of the people
killed in Afghanistan are innocent people. Some
members of the Taliban will be captured but most will
escape. Osama bin Laden's people will escape. It will
be very difficult to arrest them, even if you do, there
will be no guarantee that the Al Qaeda members who are
outside of Afghanistan will not be active. He has
cells in many different countries. We understand this
kind of operation because we were dealing with
terrorists in Malaysia.
Q. What terrorist are you talking about in Malaysia?
A. After World War Two, there were 12,000 armed
Chinese Communists. The only way to tackle them is to
address their grievances. Once you remove their
grievances, then the people will not support terrorist
activities. In the same way we have always been
advocating for the basic causes of terrorism be
tackled. If you don't tackle that, you can never be
assured if somebody who is on his own would not become
a terrorist. Because they are prepared to die, it
doesn't require many people to do something. One
person will be enough to do lots of damage.
Q. In Malaysia, there are some Malaysians who are
related to Al Qaida?
A. Yes, about 50. We have tracked down quite a number
of them. They were trained in Afghanistan.
Q. Do you think this is a war against Islam?
A. So far, the focus is only on Muslim terrorist, as
if there is no other terrorist. We know for sure that
there are a lots of terrorist in the world. In Japan,
you have Aum Shinrikyo. You used to have the Japanese
Red Army. They came here and took over the American
International Assurance Building where the US embassy
was located. We had to exchange prisoners etc.
Terrorists are everywhere and this requires
international action. There must be international
cooperation by giving information and not
discriminating between terrorists. The terrorist are
not Muslims alone. Look at Bosnia,Chechnya. There
were 200,000 Bosnian Muslims killed. But there was no
world movement, coalition to fight against Serbian
terrorism. So it gives the impression that the death
of 200,000 Muslims is not as important as 6,000 people
who died in America. That is the impression that is
given. You can't get the Muslim countries to cooperate
when they see only Muslim terrorists are hunted. In
Britain they even discriminate between their terrorist
and foreign terrorist by law.
Q. Have you read Clash of Civilizations by Samuel
Hungtington?
A. I went through it. It is a war against terrorism,
but selective war against terrorism so far. There is
no desire to go after other terrorists including in
Palestine which is the most important question for the
Muslims. Recently five children were killed by
Israelis. It seems that it is acceptable. That is the
feeling of the Muslims. One billion Muslims feel the
same way.
Q. Do you think this war will be extended to more
harsh relationship in the Middle East?
A. If the killing of Palestinians goes on, it will.
Yes, Palestinians also kill the Israelis. What they do
is very little. If they kill one Israeli, then 10
Palestinians will be killed. If ten Palestinians are
killed, then the Palestinians want to kill more
Israelis, so there is retaliation again. It continues,
never stops. You cannot expect Arafat to tell his
people, don't attack the Israelis. When some
Palestinians know their own brothers and children have
been killed by Israelis, and then say we have the Peace
Treaty so please stop attacking Israelis, they cannot
stop. Arafat is not as strong as the Israeli
government, he also has to face various groups of his
supporters who would only support him if they think he
is right. For him to just order them to stop, it won't
work. He is not even head of a real independent
government. They won't even allow him to set up a
State. In a country where the government is very weak,
people become anarchic. They don't care about law and
order. They do what they like. You cannot expect
Arafat to control. The Israelis can control their
people. But it is clear that they are not going to
control their people. If Arafat's people kill them,
they will kill more. The only way to forcibly separate
the two is by putting a UN force inside there. Of
course UN force will run the risk of being killed but
unless they are there and separating and watching over
the activity by the Palestinians and the Israelis, the
fighting will never stop. Everytime they have Peace a
Treaty, the Palestinians who are angry about their
losses will attack Israelis, because the Israelis still
occupy their land, destroy their houses and put up
Israeli settlements on the land of the Arabs.
Q. How can you divide the territory where both claim
that it is theirs.
A. Israel territory is very clear and that is what was
given to them. Since then, they have conquered
Palestinian territory. They don't want to be confined
to any border. Until now they have not defined the
border of Israel but that is a second thing. But
first, separate them physically, then only decide which
part is Israel, and which part is Palestine. But you
must go and separate them first.
Q. If UN force will go there, Malaysia will
participate?
A. Yes, we are willing, but you need a strong force
and it should be impartial. You should take action on
both. If Israelis attack Palestinians, then you have
to arrest the Israelis. Even though they may be
government soldiers. If you don't do that, then you
cannot ask Arafat to arrest his men but, Israel will
never arrest their own people.
Q. After Bush administration, Bush has been to close
to the Israel side, isn't he? Where as Clinton tried to
mediate both side, at least to listen?
A. I don't want to say anything about President Bush
because we are trying to make friends with President
Bush. But frankly, he left the Palestinian issue to
Israel. He decided to let Israel settle this thing.
Sharon is responsible of so many killings and
massaccres of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatilla in
Lebanon. He was a general, one of the most vicious
generals. When he is the leader of the government, you
cannot expect him to negotiate with Arafat. He regards
Arafat as a terrorist. He won't even stick to the
agreement reached in Norway. He rejected that. It was
an agreement solemly entered into by Israel and Arafat.
How can there be peace.
Q. You had a very good discussion with President Bush
during APEC summit in Shanghai.
A. I explained that if I agreed with the US attack on
Afghanistan, I will not only be attacked by the Islamic
opposition party in Malaysia but also rejected by the
majority of the people in Malaysia. Malaysians, no
matter whether they are PAS or UMNO, or even Chinese or
Indians feel that the US shouldn't attack Afghanistan.
Of course we sympathise with the US over the incident
of September 11. Suppose I said that we must support
the US, I will lose support from my people. Even if I
am a leader I have to to respect the feeling of the
people. President Bush understood what I meant. That
is why he doesn't press me to support him.
Q. How Japan should play role?
A. Japan should focus on rebuilding Afghanistan,
helping refugees. They are innocent people who ran
away from their country, but are also a burden on
Pakistan.
Q. How do you see the development of US and Japan
jointly organizing Afganistan rebuilding conference?
A. I think this kind of conference is very important.
But still the situation in Afghanistan is not stable,
so you have to help the refugees first.
Q. What do you think of Self Defense Force being sent
to Afghanistan?
A. I hope they are not going to fight against
Afghanistan. But if they are not aggressive and to
protect the refugees it is all right.
Q. Is there still sensitive feeling because of World
War Two?
A. I think people still remember and still have a fear
and it will take a long time for some people to forget.
Japan formed its Self Defense Force to protect its own
territory. It should remain in that role.
Q. How can you spread the real teachings of Islam?
A. It is difficult. Unlike the Christian religion
which has priesthood of whom the Pope is the most
powerful and important figure, and he will make the
decision, we don't have that system. The reason is the
same, we don't want to have anybody to use his position
in order to propagate his own interest. But
unfortunately we don't have a priest system, anybody
who is learned in Islam can make his own interpretation
and can even declare a holy war by himself. We have so
many people declaring holy wars. For example, in
Malaysia, the opposition party talks about Jihad
against us fellow Muslims, but it is wrong. When we
tell that this is wrong, some people will believe but
not all. That is the problem with Islam, because
there is no single authority to make any pronouncement.
Sometimes we try to have the head of the Al-Azhar
University, we take his fatwa, his pronouncement, but
other people can still reject. We are divided into
many sects. Within each sect, there will be many
people with different interpretation. For example, the
so called Jihad, is translated as a holy war, but from
the teachings of the Prophet, fighting against your own
selfish feelings is also Jihad. Fighting against your
lust, the desire to gratify yourself is also Jihad.
Lots of things, that we do will be interpreted as
Jihad. But these people like to equate Jihad to a holy
war. Their followers will accept their interpretation.
Other people will reject their interpretation. So it
is a bit confusing. Many people cannot understand.
Q. How about the opposition party in Malaysia?
A. They make their own interpretation. They take one
sentence from the Koran, sometimes half a sentence and
make their own interpretation to suite their
objectives. Ignorant people will accept it. It is
very difficult to stop them. We explain but it
depends, some of them accept, some of them don't. They
even teach hatred in kindergarten, which is not Islamic
at all. Muslims are supposed to be brothers, but they
teach their children to head other Muslims. In Islam
there is a lot of flexibility. You do something, only
because you can do. If you cannot do, you are not ask
to do it. You cannot eat pork, but if you are starving
and there is no other food, you can eat pork. The
interpretation is that you are only enjoined to follow
when you can. If a person tortures you, you can
renounce Islam. But in your heart you don't, but
verbally you can. They don't want you to die for
nothing, just because you continue saying I am Muslim,
I am Muslim, until somebody comes and kills you. In
the Koran, it is very clear on how to respect other
religions. To you your religion, to me my religion, you
pray in your own way, and I pray in my own way. Do not
force people to embrace your religion. But the
followers of Islam themselves like to force people.
For example when they win the war, they force the
prisoners to accept Islam, or else they will kill them.
Q. How did this kind of narrow interpretation or even
wrong teachings of Islam spread?
A. Because we are very strong in our belief. We tend
to follow the people who are said to be knowledgeable
about Islam. They are called Ulama, the learned ones.
They are not satisfied with just teaching Islam. They
want power for themselves. So because they have so
much influence on people, they want to use the
influence to gain power. So in some countries you can
have elections, you can have general assembly, but the
final say remains with the counsel of Ulama. In the
end they will decide. The more fanatical people are
towards religion, the more powerful would the ulamas
be. All these people will refer to them, anything they
will say they will accept.
Q. But unfortunately, non Muslim think that this is
Islam.
A. That is true, we cannot blame you for having that
impression. If we have views that is different from
that extreme view, we may not get the support of the
people. Muslims will say that you are not adhering to
the teachings of Islam. Many who try to give the right
interpretation of Islam, who go against the learned
ones, some of them are killed or assassinated, so they
are afraid to say the truth. In Egypt they have the
Muslim brotherhood. Anybody who doesn't agree with
them, will be killed. So the open minded Muslims are
afraid to speak out.
Q. Malaysia is quite different. Malaysia is a Muslim
country, but harmonize with Chinese and Indian, it is
like a showcase.
A. I have been able to maintain rationality among the
majority of Muslims because I studied the religion.
Because when anybody says something wrong, I can point
out that this is wrong. What I say is acceptable, even
to the religious people. That is why it is possible in
Malaysia. If I don't understand the religion, and say
that it is old fashion, this is nonsense we are living
in the modern world, we have to forget about this, then
people will say I don't conform to the religion. But I
learned about my religion, I learned the Koran
thoroughly, the traditions of the Prophet as well, so I
can say this is what the Koran says.
Q. What is the discussion between you and the
opposition about Islamic State?
A. Malaysia is an Islamic State. The interpretation
is where Muslims have the authority even if it is
shared, and non-Muslims are not oppressed, they are
free to practice their religion, no hindrance, that
makes an ideal Islamic State. There are so many
interpretations of Islamic State. There are 54 Muslim
countries in the world. They are not exactly the same.
Some proclaim themselves as Islamic Republics, some are
called Secular State, but they are all governed by
Islam. They are recognized as Muslim countries. Among
those 54 countries, Malaysia is one of them. In
Malaysia, Muslims are free to practice their religion,
Muslim laws are upheld but only applied to Muslims.
Islam is the official religion of this country. So the
opposition cannot say that Malaysia is not a Muslim
country. A lot of countries look to Malaysia as a
model of an Islamic country. Many of them come to see
how a country that is ruled by Muslims can prosper, can
be stable, can be peaceful, despite having many non
Muslims.
Q. How can a Muslim country cope with the Western
world?
A. Normal relationship. If shouldn't make any
difference that we are a Muslim country. Our relation
with them is just a relation between two different
countries. This is what I emphasize. We are an
independent country, we have our own policies, we don't
disturb your internal affairs, we want to have
relations with you, we want to trade with you, we want
to have diplomatic relationship with you, but you don't
try to impose on us with your own system or ideology.
We will not to Islamize you as well. That is all.
Q. US is an important trading partner with Malaysia,
how is this affected?
A. It harmed the economy not only in Malaysia. The US
is a buyer of 20% of Malaysian goods. The manner of
the attack using civil aircraft, caused so much damage
that people are afraid of flying, not only tourist but
also the business community. So it is very difficult
to do business, because people are not contacting each
other. You can contact by internet, but it is not the
same. You must see the country, you must visit and see
each other to do business. So it is affecting the
whole world.
Q. How can a region cooperate?
A. I think there is room for us to cooperate to
exchange information, to overcome this fear of
terrorist attacks. We are not a target because we have
not been involved in supporting actions that are
against Islam. As you point out that there are
terrorist in Japan as well. One of the reasons why
there are terrorist is extreme capitalism which people
are violently opposed to. This we also have to
correct, this capitalism that exploits the whole world
without caring. For example the currency traders made
us all poor, that is very bad. Because the countries
of East Asia were just trying to develop, suddenly
became poor, millions of people became jobless. So the
feeling of the people is very much against capitalism
and it became stronger and stronger. Today capitalism
recognize no restriction. They want to impose this on
the globalized world, so that they can go anywhere and
make as much money as they like. And when they want to
they will pull out the money, as a result, you lose
everything, your economy collapses', but they don't
care as long as they save their own money. If a
company is bankrupted it doesn't matter, if the people
commit suicide, thousands lose their jobs, they are
accused of inefficiency. In Japan, you want to follow
the Western system, before you had life time employment
so you had little social problems. But now, if the
business is not doing well, first sack your own
workers. With Americans you can sack that is all
right. They will go to the door and collect some
unemployment pay from the government and they are OK.
But in Japan, if you are sacked, you are ashamed, you
don't go to your family so it will create a big social
problem. So while one system may be good for one
country it should not be imposed on all countries.
Because the result can be disastrous. For Japan, it is
difficult to recover. Any change at any time causes
disruption. When you change for a system that is
totally unsuitable for your culture, then you will have
a prolonged bad effect. Look at Indonesia. The
Suharto government was authoritarian. But Indonesia
was peaceful, no breakaway, millions of people were
employed. Then you changed to democracy, of course
democracy is good, but people didn't understand how
they should make democracy work. They thought
democracy means freedom, they can overthrow
governments, demonstrate on the street, even revolt
againt the government and try to form your own state,
fight between Muslims and Christians, which they never
did before. They are not used to democracy, and as a
result the country is still unable to pick up.
Q. During the crisis, you are told not to help private
companies which are bailing out, now the US is doing
it, and you suggested to monitor the hedge fund, now
they are asking to monitor terrorist money?
A. Yes that is right. All the airline companies are
being bailed out, US government is injecting 17 billion
dollars. And they are asking 50 billion dollars more.
They are nearly bankrupt. This is what they have been
saying to us during the crisis, and now all their
airlines are going to be bankrupt without government
support.
Q. Now the US is the only super power, do you think
another super power such as China is needed?
A. I think China is trying to move closer to Russia in
order to try to balance things. I think balance is
always very good, if you don't have any option to
change sides and with, only one superpower it will
misbehave. The US can be one superpower and become
very popular, if it shows a caring attitude towards the
rest of the world. There was a time when the US tried
to help people, they were very popular. But now
sanctions against this country and that, they are
saying you are not democratic so we will not give
money, this kind of attitude is causing dislike for the
US. Some Americans realize this, because there are
certain pressure group within the country, they are not
able to make use of their wealth and power to win
support of themselves. If the US were to help
countries genuinely, not to try and exploit them but to
help these countries, they can build a great
civilization for the whole world. I am against war,
because it is very damaging. Why can't we sit down and
help each other. There is enough wealth in this world
to ensure nobody starves, nobody will die because of
it, enough shelter, foods. US per capita is 30,000
dollars. In many countries per capita is less than 100
dollars. What are you doing with 30,000 dollars. Even
if you eat, you will overeat, but if you give just a
little bit, many people can survive. The world is
obsessed with money and wealth. Everything is focused
on wealth and money, very selfish. The world must
concentrate on the well being of people. Now there is
no religion just hedonism, the love of pleasure. We
really have to think about others. That is why today
the world is in such a state of turmoil. Capitalism
has gone crazy.
Sumber : Pejabat Perdana Menteri
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